TOI : If men have a problem, they should speak up : Nov 7, 2006

‘If men have a problem, they should speak up’
Nilanjana Bhaduri Jha

When she first entered Parliament as a young Rajya Sabha MP, she was hailed as the real-life Rajni, after a popular TV character who took up cudgels for the underdog. So many years later, as the first-ever Minister for Woman and Child Development, Renuka Chowdhury is doing something similar, this time pushing through a few days ago, the Prevention of Domestic Violence Act, a law that already has many crying foul. With characteristic candour, the feisty minister demystifies the new law in a chat with Timesofindia.com.

From the day the new law came into force, Netizens have been writing in with myriad questions on its efficacy, fairness and extent. Before all else, we posed to the minister some questions asked repeatedly by our readers:

Q ) Will the new law eradicate domestic violence?

A ) If not eradicate, it will at least help set directions for men to behave. A lot of men don’t realise that what they do naturally is actually not acceptable as societal norms. So we will be able to give direction. We have set up a framework and the children of the future will grow up in an environment where they see parents respect each other. In any case, you didn’t need the law to do this. This is part of the vows you took when you got married and you haven’t implemented that. So sometimes we have to step in to play teacher.

Q ) Are there any laws for men who are beaten and tortured by women?

A ) Well, the law should be equally applicable. But we didn’t bring this law for some women. We brought it as a framework for civil society. And if men are being beaten up and tortured, then they must learn to speak up. I have overwhelming evidence of women who are raped, tortured, beaten up day and night, whose property is taken away, who’ve been sent to mental asylums or forced to commit sati. The husbands drink and come home and beat them up. Those are reported public demonstrations of what is happening with women. I haven’t seen that with men. Yes, if there is a need, law should be equal for both genders. But I can’t work on a hypothesis. I need people to come forward and prove it.

Q ) Will the new law also help women in abusive marriages to NRIs?

A ) Yes. This has been the worst abuse of its kind. Some people who are NRIs and are supposed to be India’s ambassadors, do such heinous acts. They come back, deliberately misguide families, get married, take property and go away; sleep with women, leave them pregnant and never send word. Sometimes they take women there and then we realise that they are already married and they use them as domestic help, knowing very well that the girl can’t go back to her parents’ house. Well, it’s not going to remain that way. I’m already on the job and I am very confident that we can bring about a treaty that can be applied both ways.

Q ) There are apprehensions that this law will turn out even more “draconian” than the 498 A (Dowry Law)…

A ) How do you say 498 A is draconian? Is it draconian that women are burning? That even pregnant women have not been spared? That there is so much domestic violence that the whole psyche of an Indian woman goes for a six? The children grow up witnessing this and believing it is right for them to beat up some other human being. It is not even so much as men and women as one human being to another. It is completely inhuman to behave like that. Yes, some women have misused 498 A, but neither has that misuse been a deterrent for women being burnt. It has also not stopped the dowry demands. So if some women somewhere do it, does that mean I don’t bring a law at all?

Q ) With the chances of compromise coming down as a result of easy recourse to law, will the institution of marriage in India be affected?

A ) I want to know what is the institution of marriage. That we beat our women, burn them, ask for dowry, have forced sex, drink and slap them around, deny them property rights, don’t include them in decision-making, force them to have abortions under amniocentesis, indulge in female infanticide, female foeticide…is this our home? Is this why we get our girls married? Is this her lot in life? I don’t agree with any of it. It’s because homes have failed, because individuals are able to perpetuate this horror on other individuals that I am forced to step in. And I am not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing – I am saying this is the way forward – respecting partners, understanding each other. Compromise is something done between families. There is no law that if you go to the police you cannot compromise. But there is now a preventive check on a man to say: “Think before you hit out, because you can be hauled up today”.

If you have more questions, suggestions, feedback for the minister, you could send them in here and we will forward them to her. In the meantime, Renuka Chowdhury also answered some other questions on the new law posed by Timesofindia.com:

Q ) So is this the first in an arsenal of women-centric laws that you intend to push through in your tenure in this ministry?

A ) If you look at it, it’s not just me. The courts have been so militant and proactive on a lot of fronts. Let’s face it, it took us 55-60 years before we said the woman is the natural guardian of the child. And today, when we look back after we’ve had the comfort of that law and recognition, doesn’t it sound idiotic that for so many years we said the father is the natural guardian and any strange man on the road can be the guardian to the child but not the mother? We lived in a society which accepted and respected that. And now the change has come. So these are the moments of change, turning points, moments of giving direction. These are the framework we are setting, and it is for the individual to carry it forward. The fact that a court has now said that if a woman is married and if she dies within seven years of married life, the family is going to be held liable. Why has it come to this extreme? Why is there a woman being raped every six minutes and being killed for dowry? And if no laws did anything to protect her, then I am forced to bring in these checks for a while.

Q ) What have you lined up next?

A ) Sexual harassment at workplaces and a Bill to put that into place; one to take cognisance of stalking as an offence, it is still viewed as a foreign subject here. Then we are looking at compulsory registration of marriage so that we can get a handle on child marriages and can protect girls from dying because they are malnutritioned to start with and they become mothers even while they are still children themselves. We have a shocking drop in sex ratios. We’ve lost 10 million girl children in 20 years. In states like UP, Bihar, in south Delhi, Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, we have shockingly skewed sex ratios which is going to hurt us in the future. There won’t be any women for men to marry.

Q ) Are you taking more pro-active steps against female foeticide?

A ) We’re taking major steps on this. We had the first round of talks with the health ministry, now we’ll have the second round of talks and we’ll carry that forward.

Q ) But amniocentesis or checking for gender is rampant…

A ) Because reporting has been so few and far between. In so many years there has been one conviction. I rest my case.

Q ) In sheer volumes, how many people do you think the domestic violence law will help?

A ) I wouldn’t be able to put numbers. Because I still think despite this there is a lot of no reporting and underreporting. But when I introduced this, even I did not expect such a humongous response. It was as if I’d lanced a wound, a festering wound. We did a phone-in show on a local TV channel in Andhra and you should have seen the kind of response. Ten women came on the line and said this is the man who’s harassing me. This is my father-in-law, this is the inspector who helped me, this is the sub-inspector who’s not helping me, this is the bureaucrat who’s interfering — please help me. I think that is amazing. And it is not just the poorest, the illiterate. Domestic violence is there among the top families of our country, it is there among the most educated elite, among the Mercedes Benz’ and designer handbags. There are men who buy these women these things as status symbols of their wealth but don’t respect the individual. I would say it’s a huge outpouring of relief that has happened. And I have been getting snowed under with visitors who land up at my house at six in the morning with suitcases, saying please help us. In Hyderabad too, I almost never got my flight. The response shows there is an unmet need.

Delhi Police alone have reported that they had 8000 calls on domestic violence last year. And there was little they could do except call the man and yell at him a bit. Because they didn’t have teeth. Now, immediately you can be jailed or fined 20000 rupees or both.

Q ) What are the modalities? Who enforces the law? Where does a victim go to first report abuse?

A ) Well, the actual modalities are that there are supposed to be protection officers and they are supposed to respond and implement this. But, having said that, that is only a technicality. Today there are very few sections under the Domestic Violence Act which are not under the Indian Penal Code, so basically what we have done is facilitated and enhanced the IPC arm, whereby these people can get redressal to grievances and the police can also take it forward because earlier they could at best reprimand them. Today they can jail them.

Q ) Cops? But universally our cops are not sensitised to handle cases like these. Many can’t even handle cases of rape properly. Do you have plans to sensitize the police?

A ) We’ve been speaking to various state Director-Generals of Police asking them to come into partnership on this, and we’ve addressed the National Police Academy where we’ve said that this should be part of the curriculum. We will also hold workshops at the grassroots level where panchayats and police stations are involved and protection officers will be appointed in all these places. This ensures that sensitising will be carried forward. Not to mention that we’ll have NGOs as partners.

Q ) Who will appoint these protection officers? How many will you require to adequately address the need all over the country?

A ) That’s for the state governments to take up. We meet them in two weeks time so that we can ask them what their modalities are and how they envisage this and how we can integrate NGOs. There are some fantastic people out there who should be part of this.

Q ) Will civil society participate?

A ) Yes, it should. If it had done so in the beginning, we wouldn’t have had this problem.

Q ) Did you have a model for the Domestic Violence Act?

A ) Oh there are plenty, even advanced economies like USA have this. We looked at them but what was necessary was that we look at ourselves. India can’t copy anyone else because of the complexities — the multiple religions, hundreds of languages, the gap between the educated and the illiterate, superstitions — to bring a law to say one size fits all is really quite complex.

Q ) And given that multiplicity of religions and beliefs et al, do you expect many women to take recourse to it?

A ) They should, because the law is applicable under the Constitution, it is applicable for every citizen.

And so if a Muslim woman or a Christian woman says I won’t take recourse to this but will go to the personal law, that’s their wish. The law is for everyone.

Q ) Should not the enactment of such a law be accompanied by a big-ticket public awareness campaign?

What are your plans on that?

A ) Absolutely, the tragedy is that nobody saw this social sector in its own identity and entity till now. In

60 years this is the first time – and the credit goes to the Congress government – that we took cognizance

of woman and child in its independent entity and set up a ministry for that to give it its due importance as a subject. This is in our common minimum programme, and you know how dear to heart it is to Mrs Sonia Gandhi and the Prime Minister. This subject, combined with our microfinance successes, will emerge as the biggest influential sector in the country today.

Q ) But there is always the concern that the poorer sections, the largest segment of women that actually

suffers domestic abuse, will never really derive the benefits of this law. They may not know how, or just not have the wherewithal…

A ) I don’t agree with that…

Q ) Also tying in with the need for a publicity campaign…

A ) Dissemination of information remains very important. And today, thanks to television, the reach is so

huge. But you’ll be surprised — I interact very closely with my constituency workers and I find that rural people have a much more open society.

The women are not afraid to come out and say this man is beating me up. There is no stigma attached to it, everyone has witnessed the bashing. They tell me, “Amma cut out that liquor first.” And I ask why and they say: “He drinks. Let him drink and die, I don’t care. But he comes home and bashes me and that is a nuisance.” There is no bitterness or rancor; she says it in a simple statement. I said to the men that now there is a law and I can put you behind bars and they laughed, “the minister is so witty”, not realising there is indeed this law now. So I called the DSP, who then addressed the crowd and told them about it.

These women have a vent, which doesn’t happen in urban spaces. These big blocks of privacy

that we put up and the fear of retribution, the fear of living in the same neighbourhood later, doesn’t

allow women to speak up and so they go unheard.

Q ) So you are looking at the great middle-class…

A ) Absolutely. And middle-class? As I said, we’ve got designer people doing this.

Q ) And the law will help stop this….?

A ) I think it will change the mindset of people, men. It will help them evolve. Like the thought,

ok let me not kick her, it may land me in trouble. Hopefully it should be able to do that. It’s so abnormal for one person to continue beating a person and then expect that person to respect you, look after your welfare, attend to your parents, bring up your bright children and turn them into leaders…

Q ) There is also the significant perception that the Act is anti-men. That it shall be misused and

much more than Section 498 A was.

A ) It’s not that it is anti-men. I wish they would look at it. What does the law say? A law helps set individual behaviour in a particular direction. We can only guide. We can steer people towards that area saying hey, if you are

husband and wife, you know it’s not really husbandly duties to bash up the wife. And it’s not really the best thing to bring up your children as witnesses to domestic violence. These fathers are earning night and day to give their children designer clothes and shoes, but they don’t realise that unless the home is holistically integrated, you are taking away the best gift to your child to be able to grow up in a secure home which will make the individual put out their best and make wonderful factors in a civil society. And their personal achievements will be that much more enhanced because they were not misguided by domestic violence.

So it’s sad if men are going to see it as an anti-men thing. It’s to help men set directions for themselves.

What are you afraid of if you are in perfect harmony with your wife. After 30 years of marriage my husband and I still have disputes, but that is the democracy of our family fabric. If he was to beat me silly and say I have to say “Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir,” it doesn’t happen. We’re trying to set up those democratic processes at home. Why did we have to do it? Simply because the men did not understand or implement the laws that have been there for the past 60 years. So I am compelled to bring this when you see the macro-level picture of the high infant mortality rate, maternal mortality rate, those statistics on rape and domestic violence, denial of human rights, denial of inheritance rights till recently when we set that right, discriminating laws against women under the Hindu Undivided Family laws. This is not for an individual, it’s for families as a whole.

Q ) The Bill was hanging fire for so long…what has been the reaction of your male colleagues?

A ) A lot of them said “humko marvadi”, you’ve killed us, finished us. But a lot of women have emailed

and written and said “you are our hero, supergirl Renuka” and all that. But what was most wonderful was that a lot of senior men and a lot of young people have come forward and said “I’m so glad you brought it. I wouldn’t accept it if my son went around slapping a woman”.

So there is a beginning…

Q ) How was the live-in part incorporated? Is it an overt acknowledgement of live-in relationships in India?

A ) I am quite amazed at the hypocrisy of our society. There is an adult man and an adult woman. I have no

role in that. By law they are consenting adults. So if voluntarily they are going to live together, does it mean that the man is entitled to beat her up or burn her or use her because he is not married to him?

And he can deprive her of money, may be he has children with her that he does not want to acknowledge?

How can you do that? Law is for all women, whether living together or married, how am I concerned?

Q ) In that case is protecting other rights of a woman in a live-in relationship on the anvil next?

A ) Protecting will come automatically. If the man is in for a free ride and is only thinking of conning the

woman then serve him right for getting into legal trouble.

Q ) And what about same sex partners in abusive relationships?

A ) The law is never static, it responds to the dynamics of a society. So as when the situation will evolve,

the law will evolve, I’m confident.

Q ) What’s happening on the Women Reservation Bill issue?

A ) I think Parliament’s mentality will change and we should be able to bring it in the next session. If I

can pull a rabbit out of the hat, let’s see. I don’t want to talk about it, I’d rather put my money where my mouth is. The men have taken that much longer to accept it. Actually they do accept it and are afraid of it.

Q ) Well, the most vociferous protests have been among your colleagues…

A ) The simplest change that I have witnessed was that Rajiv Gandhi, with a single signature, empowered

10 lakh women at the grassroots level to participate in elections. Today, for all the criticism that their husbands do the actual work etc, at the end of the day the truth is that at the panchayat level you have 42% women, not just 33%. This has evolved because people have accepted woman leadership. A silent revolution is taking place. These men will get the chance to be part of history if they were to facilitate this Bill and accept it.

Q ) Is female literacy another personal priority?

A ) It’s a huge priority across the country. We’ve given the right impetus, funds have been allotted and the gap

is narrowing.

Q ) You left your stamp with the Atithi Devo Bhava campaign as tourism minister. What will be your

signature issue in this ministry?

A ) Oh only one? I have a whole wish list coming on the heels of Diwali and going on to Christmas and New

Year.

I want to wipe out malnutrition among children and women and am looking optimistically at the 11th plan in

this regard. Then I am looking at stabilising the sex ratio, changing the mindset of society so that when India

does her “Shashtipurti”, I want the dawning of knowledge that women are an integral part of our society and so recognise her constitutional rights.

If I had a magic wand, I would wipe out HIV. India is set to have the youngest productive force by 2020. One

in six people in the world will be an Indian, given this it is imperative that we involve ourselves with our youngsters, build a great healthy society.

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